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Drooling Piston

Builing a compound set up

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I have wanted to build a compound turbo set up for my truck for a while now. 

I have a He351ve on there now. I like the way it works for towing and love the exhaust brake feature, but I’m disappointed with the spool up lag. 

My goals for this build are to retain the VGT, add a smaller turbo to achieve quicker spooling and build it myself for the “fun” of the project.

I don’t plan to let it, nor want it to build more than 55-60psi of overall boost.

To save money over buying a new turbo, I decided to put the stock HX35 on top of the VGT.

I want the HX35 to get me up to 10-15 psi of boost, then it can take it easy and let the VGT do the rest.

 

My working theory is that the smallish exhaust housing, of the HX35, though it contributes to the quicker spooling, could be a choke point in getting the extra volume of air back out of the air pump (engine). I didn’t see any waste gate actuators that would open at a lower pressure, and I’m not sure if the internal wastes gate would bleed off enough overall volume any way. This led me towards a sandwich style, external waste gate, with an adjustable actuator.

 

My plan for last weekend was to pull the oil pan, drill it, & weld in a fitting for the lower turbo oil drain, Get that back in and the truck could still be “in service” till I’m sure I’m ready for it to be down foe a while, for the fabrication part of the project. 

Due to the large flywheel housing I have for the 13 speed tranny, it was a bear to get that pan out. 

 

Got the garage cleared out enough to squeeze the truck in against the rear wall so I have room to work in front of it with the door closed. Got her up on jack stands, pulled the front wheels, removed the motor mount bolts, held up a oil drain tube and decided on where I wanted it, marked the oil pan, removed the pan bolts, pulled the pick up tube off.

 

46217142_2056542741077119_16735909495628

 

This tranny uses mounts at the flywheel housing. I worked those bolts out from underneath. That was a pain but better than taking the seats out to get the tranny tunnel out to reach these from there. 

 

46125910_2056542527743807_59350447488961

 

The cherry picker pump was bypassing and the front of the engine was not nearly high enough. It had to be hitting something that was prohibiting it from coming up any higher. 

 

46156044_2056542581077135_79468583128200

 

 

46154960_2056542477743812_29122000453170

 

I could not not see nor find, what was hitting. So I pulled the seats, and when I got one section of the tranny tunnel out, I saw what was limiting me. The tranny was coming up and lifting against the tunnel/floor. I took that out and tried again. Still wouldn’t go high enough.

 

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46164360_2056542634410463_45642018048956

 

 

I checked the twin ram intake. It was nearly crushing the fuel shut down relay, which I removed, but that wasn’t stopping the engine from tilting.

Then I found the exhaust down pipe against the firewall. Lower it down, remove the cast elbow and first section of pipe. Finally! I was able to get the oil pan to slide out. 

 

I had to disconnect or remove so much, I decided to jump into the whole project now. 

 

Edited by Drooling Piston
insert pics

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I found something interesting when I turned the oil pan upside down. 

 

Im guessing it is my KDP that made it all the way through to the pan without causing me an expensive breakdown.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2056542394410487&set=a.2056541681077225&type=3

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Remove turbo, oil lines, piping and manifold.

Since I had to do a 2 inch body lift as part of the tranny project, I hoped I would have room to use an older style (non inner cooled, 90*) manifold.

 

46229826_2056542724410454_72246702908259

 

With the added height, of the sandwich style, waste gate, the exhaust pipe, coming out of the turbo, was too high and hit the cowling, where the hood seals.

pull that back off, install the stock manifold upside down. Stack the waste gate and the turbo on top of that and hang a piece of 3 inch exhaust pipe, with a 90* bend, on the turbo.

 

46120951_2056542357743824_52828883419167

 

46196924_2056542334410493_33455209021282

 

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It looks like there’s is a bunch of room, under the manifold, for the VGT to live. 

 

46147281_2056542264410500_41213513992020

 

There is not as much as room as I first thought. In addition to leaving room for the air conditioning line to go under the turbo, without touching, and back far enough for the intermediate boost tube behind the alternator, things all of you had to deal with too. My flywheel housing moved the starter to the right side. I don’t want tooo much heat near that. And the exhaust has to go out over the frame rail, before the firewall (not enough room for the exhaust to go down the inside of the frame, with as wide as the tranny is).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Drooling Piston

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Started working out how to support the lower turbo. I didn't have a definite plan, but started by making 2 plates, that each bolt to 2, of the bottom manifold bolts

46501973_2062894273775299_46551375067763

 

 

 

I'm thinking, cut & bend these, so the wide flange I made, for the turbo, will kinda sit and slide onto these like shelves. Hopefully just need a couple bolts to hold it in position. we will see.

I was also looking at where the motor mount bolts to the block as well as the 2 small holes on top of the motor mount.

46482470_2062894340441959_60842610825143

 

 

 

I moved on to cutting out a flange to bolt to that turbo. I made it bigger than it needs to be so I have something to weld and /or bolt the support mount to.

46445150_2062894350441958_79542609810124

 

 

 

I ended up making the inside of the flange opening slightly larger than the gasket so there was room to put the exhaust pipe on the inside.

46498158_2062894400441953_51405259385843

 

 

 

While I had the de-burring bit out, I did some gasket matching porting on the inlet of the turbo housing.

46420126_2062894380441955_49940314717704

 

 

 

This was a new 90*, piece of 3" exhaust pipe. But the cutting, bending, squeezing and banging has it looking a little rough here.

46482287_2062894433775283_15645417170324

 

 

 

Test fitting the pipe to the flange.

46491885_2062894457108614_41502380736297

 

 

 

 welded together

46440316_2062894493775277_29558573828585

 

 

Then I took the de-burring tool to the inside again.

 

When I put this on the turbo, I found I hadn't left enough room for the nuts to fit on the turbo studs, they were hitting the sides of the pipe. more heating, beating and bending this piece of pipe, then welding up and smoothing out any holes that process created.

 

It is really surprising how many hours I have invested in fabricating these parts.

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3 hours ago, Drooling Piston said:

Started working out how to support the lower turbo. I didn't have a definite plan, but started by making 2 plates, that each bolt to 2, of the bottom manifold bolts

46501973_2062894273775299_46551375067763

 

 

 

I'm thinking, cut & bend these, so the wide flange I made, for the turbo, will kinda sit and slide onto these like shelves. Hopefully just need a couple bolts to hold it in position. we will see.

I was also looking at where the motor mount bolts to the block as well as the 2 small holes on top of the motor mount.

46482470_2062894340441959_60842610825143

 

 

 

I moved on to cutting out a flange to bolt to that turbo. I made it bigger than it needs to be so I have something to weld and /or bolt the support mount to.

46445150_2062894350441958_79542609810124

 

 

 

I ended up making the inside of the flange opening slightly larger than the gasket so there was room to put the exhaust pipe on the inside.

46498158_2062894400441953_51405259385843

 

 

 

While I had the de-burring bit out, I did some gasket matching porting on the inlet of the turbo housing.

46420126_2062894380441955_49940314717704

 

 

 

This was a new 90*, piece of 3" exhaust pipe. But the cutting, bending, squeezing and banging has it looking a little rough here.

46482287_2062894433775283_15645417170324

 

 

 

Test fitting the pipe to the flange.

46491885_2062894457108614_41502380736297

 

 

 

 welded together

46440316_2062894493775277_29558573828585

 

 

Then I took the de-burring tool to the inside again.

 

When I put this on the turbo, I found I hadn't left enough room for the nuts to fit on the turbo studs, they were hitting the sides of the pipe. more heating, beating and bending this piece of pipe, then welding up and smoothing out any holes that process created.

 

It is really surprising how many hours I have invested in fabricating these parts.

 

It all takes time but it will be worth it in the end. It looks great!

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I found there really isn't much room under the manifold for this VGT with its 45* cast iron exhaust elbow and my front tranny mount.

46804876_2073036646094395_94578560856175

 

I can't move it any farther forward due to clearance issues with the oil filter head.

I had previously installed a remote oil filter kit, so the filter, and getting to it are not an issue.

46816177_2073036619427731_61439189041052

 

a view from the top.

I can't raise the whole thing up any higher or the exhaust inlet will hit the bottom of the upper turbo.

This whole VGT assembly, as pictured, weighs about 55lbs. I don't want to rotate it where the exhaust inlet is out from under the other turbo because any supports or mounts would just have to be that much longer giving the weight of the turbo that much more leverage, that will need to be stabilized.
46976933_2073036569427736_49871298158080

 

This shows the tight clearance under the top turbo. The low point is actually the waste gate flange. 

I need to leave enough room to bolt up the waste gate actuator too.

46981050_2073036686094391_15154972922059

 

This shows swapping the compressor outlet and the intake boot.

I still use the stock air filter box. I have swapped it and the battery, so the air filter gets cooler air from around the headlight & core support. This configuration looks like it will be harder to get an inlet tube to line up with the outlet of the air filter.

The blue pipe is the old charge air tube going to the air cooler. I know that will need to be modified or replaced. I'm thinking about putting a 90* boost boot at the air cooler and bringing the charge air tube down along the fan shroud where the coolant reservoir is. but that is a concern for later in this project. It will probably depend on how the intermediate boost tube ends up being shaped.

46892483_2073036666094393_53551792042184

 

I drilled one turbo stud hole all the way through, bolted this piece to the bottom, then tack welded this to another piece that bolts to 2 of the lower manifold bolts.

46806665_2073036499427743_59707831760610

 

Made this little twisty brace for the front of the turbo. I will have to put longer studs in the VGT & in the manifold, to get a few more threads on these nuts now.

47043759_2073036539427739_97307803407876

 

and the rear (closer to the flywheel) mount/bracket tack welded together.

I will probably end up making new mounts but at least now I have a template for shape, size & bends.

I will pay close attention to wrench access as I take this back apart. So I know where I may be able to add stiffener gussets and where it is already too tight.

47052427_2073036552761071_32886227001042

 

I having big fun so far.

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I felt like I didn't make much noticeable progress this weekend.

 

first I noticed that where I thought the waste gate actuator was going to be located won't give me enough room to route the 1 1/2" pipe from it, back into the intermediate exhaust pipe. I cut the spacer elbow apart, tried rotating it and tack welded it back together.

 

I made another twisty brace, and welded a bolt onto the flange for it to mount to.

 

I took everything back off the truck, extracted 3 studs, ran a tap down through those holes, and reinstalled longer studs.

 

while I had the tap out, I ran it into all the manifold holes to clean them up.

 

did some hopefully, final trimming on the lower turbo, exhaust inlet flange, cut that piece of pipe as short as I dare, not wanting to crowd wrench access to the mounting bolts, welded on a V-band flange, did some smoothing/porting work inside this piece.

47165472_2081596295238430_76684220856008

 

47376587_2081596195238440_16733379502192

 

While playing with the deburring tool, I did some clean up, champfering and gasket matching on the waste gate piece.

47384284_2081596168571776_68030214371383

 

drilled, tapped, and installed a fitting in the exhaust manifold,  (this will be the source to get exhaust back pressure gases to move the air cylinder controller and to monitor on a gauge), then smoothed it out on the inside. You can also see, in the top left, one of the studs I replace with a longer one.

47373023_2081596245238435_13402472977908

 

Started cutting and shaping the new, 1 piece lower turbo support brace.

47225206_2081596218571771_30819737760411

 

This is the point where I ran out of oxygen and no where to exchange a bottle on a Sunday afternoon. I called it quits for the day.

 

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It looks great!

 

The progress that people see is the easy part. It is all the little details that people don't see that will cause you the most trouble and take a lot of time. Stay the course and keep moving. That is the most important part. Many times i have talked my self out of doing projects only to "soak" on it for a while and come up with a solution. #1 most important thing is to not be in a hurry. I am typing this for you... but also telling it to myself at the same time. LOL!

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Great looking work! Can't wait to see how you like it. Comparing the amount of time I have into putting together my setup (cheating with a mostly complete kit) with what your doing tells me you have to have some serious time and effort into yours. Those braces are going to make one stout setup!

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You need to step up your game.... to SIX turbos on a 5.9....

 

 

LOL I am not even sure what this is for, seems like an awful lot of work to go after Baca and Miller...  Yea Ben is right, you're doing awesome and take your time. I always overtthink it, get frustrated, walk away, come back and do a face palm oh duh... Then get it done lol.

Edited by megacabcummins
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25 minutes ago, megacabcummins said:

You need to step up your game.... to SIX turbos on a 5.9....

 

 

LOL I am not even sure what this is for, seems like an awful lot of work to go after Baca and Miller...  Yea Ben is right, you're doing awesome and take your time. I always overtthink it, get frustrated, walk away, come back and do a face palm oh duh... Then get it done lol.

 

It's a test bed engine. It was never meant to go in a truck. They are going to use it to test some new products including cylinder heads.

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5 minutes ago, Torque Monkey said:

 

It's a test bed engine. It was never meant to go in a truck. They are going to use it to test some new products including cylinder heads.

 

That is good to hear. I'd love to see more cylinder head options for these things. I'd also like to hear what that thing sounds like in person :right:

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You need to step up your game.... to SIX turbos on a 5.9....
 
 
LOL I am not even sure what this is for, seems like an awful lot of work to go after Baca and Miller...  Yea Ben is right, you're doing awesome and take your time. I always overtthink it, get frustrated, walk away, come back and do a face palm oh duh... Then get it done lol.
That injection pump is dead sexy!

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Yea It Is !!!  Billet Sigma Pump... $15K of fueling goodness....

 

I am sure this has been asked and you've answered, but why the 13 speed?

 

 

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Sorry about the thread hijack
Your effort will be well worth it! Excellent job!

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On 12/5/2018 at 11:54 AM, DRobinson said:

If you don't mind me asking, what are you using for a welding setup?

A 220 volt Miller wire feed that I bought new about around 1995. 

This was the first project I built with that welder.

When the kids were young and we towed the camp trailer behind this, they hadn't invented toy hauler camp trailers yet, 

47221352_2086340361430690_66191021371356

 

Edited by Drooling Piston
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6 turbos!

I would love to!!!

even just for the fun of talking about it  and how it all works. 

But, it looks like the turbos & piping take up more room than the rest of the engine 

i guess if you don’t want a hood or right fender you might have enough room for it all. 

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On 12/5/2018 at 1:39 PM, megacabcummins said:

Yea It Is !!!  Billet Sigma Pump... $15K of fueling goodness....

 

I am sure this has been asked and you've answered, but why the 13 speed?

 

 

After breaking the automatic tranny & getting price quotes for a “durable” rebuild, that I didn’t expect to like the way it shifts either, this seemed cheaper and I expected to like it better. 

It is great for towing, but I never expected how loud it was going to be with gear whine in the cab.

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5 hours ago, Drooling Piston said:

 

It is great for towing, but I never expected how loud it was going to be with gear whine in the cab.

 

Think I warned you about that.  RTOO9513 double OD right?  Drove several of those and they made as much gear noise as 318s did engine noise.  😨  👎  Can't imagine those paired up.  😳   Ones I drove were 335 Cummins.

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7 hours ago, Russ Roth said:

 

Think I warned you about that.  RTOO9513 double OD right?  Drove several of those and they made as much gear noise as 318s did engine noise.  😨  👎  Can't imagine those paired up.  😳   Ones I drove were 335 Cummins.

yep,

I brushed in bed liner on the floor, added dyno matting insulation everywhere. It is still noisy. 

I would swap it out for a newer 13 spd, that has finer cut gears to quiet things a bit but, nothing else has this much OD ratio. this has a 0.87, 0.75 and 0.62, most newer 13 spd trannys top gear is only a 0.87 or maybe 0.85. 

there is no room for a bigger pinion gear in the dana 70 to go taller than the 3:54 gears back there. and though I've never had one, I just don't trust a gear vender type OD unit.

 

I have compensated for some of the noise with tire size. My primary highway towing gear is 8th direct or 12th, when the splitter is in the OD position it is much louder.

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when your in the normal driving mode what gears do you use, knowing that you skip a bunch of them 

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You could always swap out your rear end for a first gen Dana 70 (aka Dana 71) with the 3:07 gears.

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3 hours ago, GTroyer said:

when your in the normal driving mode what gears do you use, knowing that you skip a bunch of them 

When not towing or hauling, I leave it in high range and drive it like a 5 speed till I get up to speed on the highway, then click it up to OD, where she runs about 1750rpms for 70mph

Edited by Drooling Piston

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15 hours ago, Drooling Piston said:

I have compensated for some of the noise with tire size. My primary highway towing gear is 8th direct or 12th, when the splitter is in the OD position it is much louder.

 

It has been a lot of years since I have even seen one of those but it was by far louder in 13th than any of the other gears.  I liked the rigs really well, '71 Diamond Reo, and the tranny would have been fine except the noise got old really fast.  I think they were geared so you were almost never in top gear.  I remember coming out of Tillamook and nearing the Banks exit.  You hit a slight downhill curve and a very long straight so I decide to see how fast she would go.  84 MPH.  Glad no cops around.  Still liked those rigs as well as any I have driven over the years and that has been a bunch since most of the time I drove part time when off duty from my other work so would get whatever rig might be avalable.  I did make a turn Portland/Seattle in a KW cabover with the same tranny and while you could hear it not nearly so noisy as when it is basically right beside you.

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